Curse

LifeInfusion · Nov 11, 2006, 10:11 PM // 22:11

Dear OP, I PUGed the whole campaign. I feel your pain. When the other members of your groups don't know what they are doing, it usually ends in failure.

Talic · Nov 11, 2006, 11:42 PM // 23:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Corpselooter

The Drought is plain easyness, Arcane Thievery + Diversion + Arcane Larceny + Broadhead Arrow = Byebye drought.

Anyway, i agree with some parts being overly hard, i mean wtf killing a boss that is only suspectible to attacks for 10 seconds with lots of margonites coming at you? =|

Another example, Dasha Vestibule mission. Goren dies. Goren dies. Goren dies. Goren doesn't die, you get owned by fire djinn boss. You don't die Goren doesn't either, mission completed. Great, now you can do attack at the kodash. Party gets wiped, lots of Margonites on Kodash Forum. Pwnd.

Want goren to not die? Two words, protective spirit, that's how I did the mission quite easily =).

And about the maddok crevice misson, yea, stay under the shadow and the archers can't hit you.

Personally, I thought the campaign was quite easy and enjoyable, except for shiro and his OMG IMPOSSIBLE ODDS LOL --- wipe. Move.

reetkever · Nov 12, 2006, 12:38 AM // 00:38

Well I beat the game with hench, except for Gate of Madness... But I must say that the Realm of Torment creatures are crazy compared to the rest in the game

Really, first you have some Kournans, which only have Whirling Defense as a rather good skill imo, after that, you get Margonytes which can hit for some damage, but still go down pretty fast...

And then there are these creatures. They go down slow, do much damage, and if their HP goes below 50%, you gotta kill them fast or they'll duplicate.

Hard? No, not with the right team, but someone doing Guild Wars for the first time might think 'wtf is this? o.O'

The hard part isn't the monsters, but the strenght difference. When everything goes fairly easy, or seems easy, when fighting something that is harder, it looks like it's overpowered, but in reality, the rest was just underpowered. The Drought still is no match compared to Glint imo.

G-Humps · Nov 12, 2006, 03:10 AM // 03:10

Well look on the birghtside... atleast u get weopons and stuff for completing the game hehe

Rera · Nov 12, 2006, 05:13 AM // 05:13

I personally prefer a game that forces you to put some thought into what you're doing. The majority of the GW playerbase is completely incompetent because they didn't actually need to learn anything or be any good to progress in the previous chapters. Nightfall might change that. Sure, some people will be frustrated that omg they can't just take their favorite mending build into every mission and win for free, but that saves the rest of us some headaches.

Alleji · Nov 12, 2006, 05:34 AM // 05:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr_T_bot

I challenge you people to put together one from core and Nightfall only skills.

[skill]Barrage[/skill] [skill]Savage Shot[/skill] [skill]Distracting Shot[/skill] [skill]Favorable Winds[/skill] [skill]"Stand Your Ground!"[/skill] [skill]"Go for the Eyes!"[/skill] [skill]Whirling Defense[/skill] [skill]Resurrection Signet[/skill]

[skill]Barrage[/skill] [skill]Savage Shot[/skill] [skill]Distracting Shot[/skill] [skill]"Never Surrender!"[/skill] [skill]"Stand Your Ground!"[/skill] [skill]"Go for the Eyes!"[/skill] [skill]Whirling Defense[/skill] [skill]Resurrection Signet[/skill]

[skill]Order of Pain[/skill]

= own PvE.

dgb · Nov 12, 2006, 05:43 AM // 05:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jaml

Or for example the Mission after that in the caves where the archers before the bosses spike your monks in one shot?

[skill]"Shields Up!"[/skill]

Seriously, with one warrior and a warrior secondary you can keep it up near-permanently and it owns that part to the face more than it owns one of Alleji's ranger spikes.

*no offense Alleji.

EDIT: Unless you're making your warrior some healing breeze gimp because you think healing prayers is better than tactics. If you're that then I'm glad we have the ward against bad players that is Nightfall.

-Loki- · Nov 12, 2006, 05:54 AM // 05:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jaml

Or for example the Mission after that in the caves where the archers before the bosses spike your monks in one shot?

Maybe you could try standing under the bridge? Arrows require line of sight. Standing under the bridge robs them of that. Then all you have to fight is the 2 bosses who are, in fact, complete pussies. You might lose a henchman running to the bridge, but just signet of rebirth him and he is at full health/70% energy under the bridge ready to fight.

arcanemacabre · Nov 12, 2006, 06:25 AM // 06:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by -Loki-

Maybe you could try standing under the bridge? Arrows require line of sight. Standing under the bridge robs them of that. Then all you have to fight is the 2 bosses who are, in fact, complete pussies. You might lose a henchman running to the bridge, but just signet of rebirth him and he is at full health/70% energy under the bridge ready to fight.

Yeah, this is exactly what we did, not even thinking twice. Worked fine and we didn't lose anyone. In fact, in the middle of killing Hunger, I started thinking "Hey, aren't there a ton of archers above us? Wonder why we're not getting spiked to death..." until I realised we were protected by the bridge beneath their feet.

GW may not have Z-axis, but it sure has obstacles that block ranged attacks! Really, if people just read the skills, and study techniques within the confides of the game mechanics, winning in GW is simply a matter of common sense. If you're lacking that, you probably lose at a lot of games, not just GW.

LagunaCid · Nov 12, 2006, 07:18 AM // 07:18

Hah. Why not use Whirling Def and see the archers spiking the BOSS? ^.^

0mar · Nov 12, 2006, 09:49 AM // 09:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by -Loki-

Maybe you could try standing under the bridge? Arrows require line of sight. Standing under the bridge robs them of that. Then all you have to fight is the 2 bosses who are, in fact, complete pussies. You might lose a henchman running to the bridge, but just signet of rebirth him and he is at full health/70% energy under the bridge ready to fight.

yep, when I saw that bridge, it was pretty obvious that's what Anet intended us to do. It's akin to putting explosive barrels on a ledge in an FPS game.

Captain Arne Is PRO · Nov 12, 2006, 09:54 AM // 09:54

Aren't games supposed to be more challenging when you are new to them? Otherwise I wouldn't be here 18 months later.

*Darcy* · Nov 12, 2006, 10:00 PM // 22:00

IMO the players who find NF easy are those who have used their characters for multiple tasks, not just using the same build all the time. My guildmate is not finding much difficulty in figuring the best builds for his Tyrian warrior and heroes. I, on the other hand, have to keep asking him which build to use on my dervish's heroes, as my build-changing experience is very low.

Players new to GW with NF are without that advice unless they belong to a guild with experienced helpful members. With the addition of heroes, they are worse off than anyone who started with Prophecies or Factions. For their heroes to be effective, they need a crash course in skill synergy.

And yes, I remember NES and the joy I felt when they introduced save points and you didn't have to keep repeating the game because you used up all your lives before the end. And again when save anywhere started.

The Bloodrose · Nov 12, 2006, 10:05 PM // 22:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sectus

I've completed the game entire game using heroes and henchies, and I even got masters on every mission. (the only missions I did with humans players are the 2 last missions, but I'm sure those can be completed with heroes and henchmen as well.) So I'm definitely sure the entire game can be completed using only heroes and henchmen.

In my opinion, I wish the game were harder. I thought it was pretty easy until you got to Realm of Torment. I can understand that people completely new to Guild Wars might have difficulty, especially when it comes to building effective builds, but I don't think Anet should always cater to completely new players. Most of the people playing Nightfall has played Factions and Prophecies, and we want new challenging content. We don't want missions or quests we can just dance right through without worry.

If only every GW player could be as "1337" as you, wouldn't that be swell? Remember, GW was made for the casual gamer, and to the casual gamer, Nightfall is hard as hell. And if GW doesn't cater the the new gamers, and only the old. How exactly will they get new people interested in it? Granted old people are getting bored and moving on, so they need to keep the game semi-geared towards new players. Anet has to replace those who leave or the whole game will tank.

Jaml · Nov 12, 2006, 10:43 PM // 22:43

Bringing certain skills should never be a requirement. A lot of people dont know about shields up until they play a warrior. Or have no idea how a interrupt mesmer works. Not everyone knows about all the over thousand skills in the game or has them unlocked or even has the right chapter. Every mission should be doable with basic healing an damage skills. You should make it through faster if you use good combos but forcing certain skills will doom new and average players that just play their class and have no knowledge about the others. A tank couldn´t care less about prot. spirit or guardian, he just takes the healer henchie and wants to have a good time. Like i said in a previous post the knowledge you have to bring to make it anywhere in nightfall alienates new and casual players. It frustrates them to the point of just giving up and shelve the game.
And dont get me started on shiro. That guy is insane. Totally ridiculous.
Prophecies was perfect. You could get everywhere without much trouble except for bonus areas like sorrows furnace, uw and fissure. Why can´t they make nightfall like that?

Thallandor · Nov 13, 2006, 02:08 AM // 02:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jaml

Prophecies was perfect. You could get everywhere without much trouble except for bonus areas like sorrows furnace, uw and fissure. Why can´t they make nightfall like that?

Because:

1) GWP was the first title of the series and everyone started new from scratch and it has the most time placed into development (apart from writing its engine).

2) Factions and Nightfall are both *expansions* which can be played as standalone chapters but keeping in mind that it must allow those players to be able to link their games together, *expansions* will have to cater to high level play earilier in the storyline as compared to Prophecies (where players were new to GW overall) otherwise our level 20 characters would tear through the lower level missions and get bored even faster. Nightfall partly made up for this with a more comprehensive setup in the Istan to allow players to learn at a more reasonable pace with room to make mistakes and learn from them.

I can understand why new players could be frustrated and there are several points that may lead to this:

1) Nightfall isnt builded for new/causal players in mind: this can be heavily debated since like a coin it works both ways. Heros allows you to play on your own terms provided that you are able enough to use them. Since they use skills you unlocked on your account, naturally more experienced players get the better end of the stick since they would have account that would have close to full unlocks with several Elite skills. But then again, there are several things that help new players as well, and one of them that is overlooked is Hero Skill from Hero skill trainers. Did you know that when you buy Hero skills using Sunspear points, other than unlocking the skill for your account your PvE character that got the skill will also have the skill on your own skill bar as well? What this means is that you have practically close to 15-17 free skills for your primary class which you otherwise will have to buy.

2) Difficulty isnt well scaled? I notice that what happens in Nightfall is that often for most quest or mission, your average build works and the AI of the Heros is able to let you pass through without much difficulty at all. Then there are some bottleneck missions which suddenly give players Difficulty shock symptoms and when they get stuck, they get frustrated and then look around for help in PuG but no one takes them. Personally i feel this "Difficulty Shock Syndrome" is the cause of most of the frustrations that many newer players feel since most of them require you to have highly specific skillset/Hero builds inorder for you to do them with Heros + Hencies only. This perhaps Anet could do better to educate newer players by exposing them to such problems in a less punishing way earilier in the game with more hints (eg. quest that give a skill to kill a mob that would be close to impossible to kill otherwise? hence letting players understand the importance of certain skills) to prepare them for future difficulties.

3) AI and aggro. I got nothing much to say except that this is a balance that Anet will have to make while the playerbase will have to live with.

Playing Nightfall only with Heros and Hencies is possible (Masters on every mission not inclusive of this statement) though you may find that on the last two missions a Necro and Mesmer Hero is a must and you should choose Noru and Masters of Whispers (assumming only Nightfall players) in your earilier decisions should you wish to Hero + Hench them.

Lastly, dont give up and try to learn from your mistakes and think the problems through and give it another go. Eg. The Drought (level 28 ele boss) which can wipe your party with 2 spells. [Remember if it cant cast its spells it wont hurt you-broadhead arrow (factions Elite) but there should be other NF based skills that will work as well.] And good luck all.

MaglorD · Nov 13, 2006, 02:39 AM // 02:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hockster

It's just you. Nightfall is the easiest of the series so far. Learn how to control your hench and heroes. Flag placement is crucial in many missions. As is selecting the correct party/skill makeup.

Disagree. Prophecies is the easiest and can be henched for all missions. Factions and Nightfall are probably about equal in difficulty.

Rathcail · Nov 13, 2006, 03:26 AM // 03:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by MaglorD

Prophecies is the easiest and can be henched for all missions.

And bonuses too. This even back when there was no heroes or hench control.

Avarre · Nov 13, 2006, 04:29 AM // 04:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr_T_bot

Which require both other chapters. I challenge you people to put together one from core and Nightfall only skills.

Ok.

Versus the Drought? [skill]Backfire[/skill] So long as you're being spammed with stone daggers, make it hurt. From there, just pile on damage and it collapses, Master reward and all.

Moddok Crevice. Use the bridge or have a mesmer with [skill]Spiritual Pain[/skill]. Alternatively, any marginally decent ele can nuke the rangers down easily. No specific skill needed, though snares help for master.

Dasha Vestibule. [skill]Protective Spirit[/skill]. Beyond that, [skill]Divine Intervention[/skill] and [skill]Judge's Intervention[/skill] can assist, besides just pulling smartly.

Ruins of Morah. Knowing how to aggro, and wands.

Gate of Madness. [skill]Wild Blow[/skill] [skill]Ward Against Melee[/skill] [skill]Empathy[/skill]. The only thing you need for this mission is a renewable source of damage. It's fully possible without wild blow, or spoil victor, or empathy - those just make it easier. Wards give you the advantage that IO becomes much less dangerous, but if you can hold his aggro on a decently armored character, that isn't needed either.

There are very few missions that require a specific skill as a neccessity. All of the ones I listed can be done without any of the mentioned skills, these are just each one of 64 skills that can be brought at a single time that can help.

MaglorD · Nov 13, 2006, 04:38 AM // 04:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rathcail

And bonuses too. This even back when there was no heroes or hench control.

Yes and bonuses too. I have the protector of tyria title for all core professions.